Jericho - The Oldest City on Earth
A sad day in Palestine again, as Israeli forces attacked a prison in Jericho to capture an "already captured" Palestinian charged with attempt to assassinate a right wing Israeli leader that supports the excommunication of the Palestinian people.
The lack of respect for Palestinian Police is undeniably disgusting and is also the root of evil with internal Palestinian problems, which, I think is the whole reason why the Police are disrespected by the Israeli's, to cause internal strife within our lands.
The internal strife I talk about, is the gangs here within Palestine. They are civilians that carry guns around the city, they shoot into the air at night, they drive around stolen cars that do not have plates, they try to intimidate their own people; they are Palestinian cowboys. They think that they alone will liberate Palestine with these archaic techniques using violence and what not when they don't understand how the world works anymore, mainly because they have probably never traveled outside of there controlled borders and there lack of formal and cultured education.
It is illegal in Palestine to have civilians carry guns but we see it everyday. The days that the Police are in the city, things feel so good and so normal. They check every car to make sure it is registered and licensed, that the driver is licensed, and no civilians in the street have guns.
You see, our system here works differently then in the rest of the world. It is illegal for us to have our own police according to Israel. If Israel decides to come into our city they warn our people that if they see anyone with a uniform they will shoot and kill him. So when things just start to feel good again, Israel decides they need to come monitor the city, which means, all police hide and all civilians are confined to there home as they drive around in there hummers, etc.
I am not sure if they showed footage of the prisoners and police as they were exiting the prison, didn't you think it was odd that they didn't have any clothes on? Well, the reason for that is, like I said, if they see you wearing a Palestinian uniform, they will be shot and killed, no warning and no questions asked.
The Israeli's do not "work with" the Palestinian Police and government to bring criminals to justice, they undermine there power and their pride instead.
I am proud and will always be proud of our government, Hamas or what not, because they will not undermine my people, my government, and the police that are working to make our country better.
We do not have any choices. We do not have any power.
How are powerless & hopeless people to act? Discuss.
posted by Palestinian Princess @ Wednesday, March 15, 2006
37 Comments:
Just a few notes, questions, and thoughts (yes, from a right wing radical Israeli crackpot)
...to capture an "already captured" Palestinian charged with attempt to assassinate a right wing Israeli leader that supports the excommunication of the Palestinian people.
Obviously, freedom of speech allowed "Ghandi" Ze'evi (named for his looks, not his philosophies) to espouse whatever view he wants. What difference does that make? I assume by "Palestinian" you mean "Palestinians", and "already captured" you mean "about to be released" (oh, and by "attempt to assissinate" I assume you mean "assassinating").
The internal strife I talk about, is the gangs here within Palestine. They are civilians that carry guns around the city, they shoot into the air at night, they drive around stolen cars that do not have plates, they try to intimidate their own people; they are Palestinian cowboys. They think that they alone will liberate Palestine with these archaic techniques using violence and what not when they don't understand how the world works anymore, mainly because they have probably never traveled outside of there controlled borders and there lack of formal and cultured education.
It is often heard, in both Israeli and Western media, that many of these cowboys are also members of the police forces. Do you think this is true? I'm not denying the existance of honest and decent policement, but the picture generally given is that the inmates are running the asylum.
[D]idn't you think it was odd that they didn't have any clothes on?
Please see http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdonlyres/108350C7-58CF-4E14-9164-A1AAFF5C1A9C/116392/798A9015C88D4D74BBFBE7BA45DEC69B.jpg Where are the naked guys?
The Israeli's do not "work with" the Palestinian Police and government to bring criminals to justice, they undermine there power and their pride instead.
Do you agree or disagree with the following:
1. The targets of this raid killed an Israeli cabinet official
2. Israel agreed to let the PA imprison the in Jericho instead of in an Israeli prison
3. The Hamas-led government, as well as Abu Mazen, agreed to let them out
(Note I haven't yet said anything about the legality of the raid-- I'm merely pointing out what agreements were broken that led to this situation. Of course, as one poster pointed out the other day, history is not the best reason for doing things - an eye for an eye makes everyone (half) blind.)
Woodrow Wilson was the 28th President of the United States of America who introduced the idea of "Self determination of peoples", in which the people themselves create their own state and system of government (and prison system). Israel, who calls itself the 'only democracy in the Middle East' can't seem to adhere to such a basic principle of democracy.
This 'action' is just another example to the world of Israel's utter arrogance.
When I saw the video on the news last night I could not believe it! (And yes, at the least the first group to surrender were stripped down to their underwear).
This kind of 'action' will only serve to strengthen Palestinian resolve to fight the occupation in everyway possible.
I didn't see the video -- if they were in fact undressed, then I stand corrected. Regarding Israeli arrogance in this -- if you remember your history, the murderers escaped to PA terroritory after killing Israeli tourism minister Rechavam Ze'evi in 2001. In 2002, an agreement was reached under which they would be imprisoned (hrm.. killing a cabinet member of a neighboring country ... prison? what an idea!) in Jericho under the supervision of American and British guards. When it was announced that they were to be released, Israel went in.
Is this arrogant? Yes. Is it condescending? Yes. Has the PA government shown that it can be trusted? No.
If you think that Israel likes the idea of handling this -- this is a mission that no one is happy about. While the initial decision to let the PA imprison the killers was not a particularly popular one, the idea of going into Jericho to bring them out is hardly one that anyone is excited about. It's a mission that's unpleasant for the troops involved, and everyone knows (or at least fears) that the PFLP will do everything in it's power to murder more Israeli civilians (and, of course, go crazy around all symbols of America / EU / etc, as we've seen in the last 24 hours).
It is also outrageous that they would destroy a prison that holds criminals in to get a captured man already? what is the purpose of destroying the infrastructure, if not to keep the Palestinians under their control, thereby they can say that We cannot control our own people. They outrageously undermine the Police & act as oppressors without any censure from the USA, using the tanks & weapons that they USA has given Israel, whether its by money or ammunition!!!
Take care Lucy, I am in total agreement with you & feel the depression & outrage with you. Keep up the reporting from the inside. We need more people like you to show & tell us what is really happening over there.
from
a Palestinian/Israeli in the USA
PS. bytw, SR do you ever thing that Israel goes too far sometimes? or are they always right? I can understand defending itself but they do allot of provoking as well.
I'm a Palestinian living in exile in Canada at the moment, I used to live in the United States. If you saw the TV program 60 Minutes last week you saw a story about a guy named Marc Emery who has the nick name "The Prince of Pot". He has sold millions of 'Pot' seeds over the internet to both Canadians and Americans south of the border (something that's not necessarily illegal in Canada). He is now wanted by U.S. authorities...my question: what if U.S. Special Ops stormed the border, smashed this mans house down, threatened anybody who stood in the way, grabbed him and flew him back to the United States for trial? How would this play in the world media? ...not very good...
There are many stories like this involving petty thieves and murders wanted by Canadian authorities and vice-versa.
This never would happen here because this is not how democratic countries act with each other. There is absolutely NO REASON for any country to do this, what Israel did is wrong...period!
anon / abu-issa,
Re: Israel -- I'm quite a strong critic of Israeli policy (and no, not in the "we should kill all the Arabs, not give them rights" sort of way). I happen to think (and have mentioned before here) that Israel has a very poor record as a democracy compared to a secular democracy, but given that that's not Israel's original mandate, maybe that's the wrong yardstick. One day I'll share all my criticisms of Israel with you (of course, instead of one day, it'll probably one week, but that's besides the point).
Regarding destroying the infrastructure of law enforcement -- you have a point. I don't know enough (see? ignorance!) to know if this was in the course of the fight or afterwards, etc. I assume you do acknowledge, though, that many of the Palestinian "police" are nothing more than officially armed thugs from Fatah, Hamas, et al. (Yes, I know, that makes them quite similar to the official thugs of the Israeli gov't... but that's another point).
Regarding extradition & Canada / US -- I think you're missing two things
1. I'd hope murdering a cabinet member is illegal in the PA as well (unike your example of pot & canada). If so, then it's not comparable. If it's not... I'm not even going to finish this sentence
2. If (say) Oswald had fled to Canada, don't you think the Canadians would've given him up to the US for extradition? Even if they didn't, don't you think they'd keep him in jail for more than 4 years?
Israel has extradited people to the US before... has the PA ever given up anyone?
P.S., anonymous, can I ask that you pick a semi-unique name (even initials, or anon1 or something). It's sometimes hard to discuss things when there are multiple anonymouses.
P.P.S. why the dual identity of Palestinian / Israeli? Do you actually hold both citizenships (I know that's not quite legal). The only people I know who would say such things are those such as my big nosed (hi ODM!) Jewish (bagel eating (that's us!)) great grandmother, who lived in Palestine since 1923 and Israel since 1948.
Palestinian "police" are nothing more than officially armed thugs from Fatah, Hamas,
Not ture... my uncle happens to be a police, who actually works at the "border" control in Jericho. He thinks Fatah and Hamas are both retarded... So your statement is wrong, he was hired by the authority and the authority has lots of people running it, not just hamas and fatah... So your wrong, they are not all thugs, unless you just consider palestinians in general thugs.
To be fair, my full sentence said "many of the Palestinian "police" are nothing more than officially armed thugs from Fatah, Hamas, et al."
I did not say all, or even most. In fact, I think it must be quite difficult for those who really believe in law and order in the face of opposition, not just from the gangs you describe, but also from their fellow officers. I do not know enough to say what percentage fits in this discription (10%? 30%? 90%?), but, I _really_ hope the good cops are able to take control of the situation.
Lucy, very good post. While I totally respect your uncle, I think it is exaggerated for him to believe that all Hamas and Fatah are thugs. Of course, there are thugs in every organisation, I'd say most of those running Israel are THUGS, but there is a lot to respect about Hamas, and I hope they are able to redress some of the crimes committed against your people. I know you might not think so yourself, but I hope they will!
Keep up the great work!
For the longest time the Police of New York City were corrupt beyond belief. Rudy Giuliani as the US Attorney for the Southern District of New York helped to clean all of that up in the 1980's.
My point being that a corrupt Police force is not a new concept and the Palestinian Police service is certainly not immune.
Israel needs to give the PA the room to mature in order to build a viable authority. Actions like we just saw will only serve to undermine the PA's authority...which is likely the underlying reason they did it...
Lucy, you have asked a reasonable question: "How are powerless & hopeless people to act?" Presumably you desire a situation where the Israelis do work with the Palestinian Police and government to bring criminals to justice.
I will attempt a reasonable answer: what the Palestinian Police should do is to observe international agreements rather than ignoring them, and then pointing fingers, blaming Israel and portraying themselves as "hopeless" when the result was entirely of their own creation.
To review: In 1993 the PLO signed something called the Oslo Accords, in which they claimed they were going to set up a civilized government willing to live in peace alongside Israel. The PA was set up, armed, and given a police force. The accords included that the PA would have a justice system, which would comply with extradition requests submitted by Israel for serious crimes committed on Israeli soil.
In October 2001, Israeli tourism minister Rahamim Zeevi was murdered in cold blood outside his hotel room. The murderers, identified with the PFLP, fled to PA territory.
The PA, which has never complied with even one extradition request from Israel, insisted that it would jail the criminals in the PA instead of turning them over to Israel.
Israel, which understood that the Palestinian street would riot uncontrollably were its government to actually comply with its own agreement to extradite criminals, went along -- but with one absolute requirement: that US and UK monitors would constantly supervise the incarcerations, to ensure that they would not be able to escape and/or perpetrate further terrorist attacks. Only under this absolute condition was Israel willing to have them incarcerated in a PA jail.
Fast forward to January 2006, when Hamas wins the PA elections. Hamas has repeatedly called for the release of these murderers in violation of PA agreements, including the Jericho agreement that led to their incarceration there with US and UK monitors.
On March 8, Jake Walles, U.S. Consul General, and John Jenkins, UK Consul General, send a letter to President Abbas. This letter, which was also furnished to the Israelis, reads [in part] as follows:
The Palestinian Authority has never fully complied with basic provisions of the agreement that established the U.S. and UK Jericho Monitoring Mission.
The Palestinian Authority has consistently failed to comply with core provisions of the Jericho monitoring arrangements regarding visitors, cell searches, telephone access and correspondence.
Furthermore, the Palestinian Authority has failed to provide secure conditions for the U.S. and UK personnel working at the Jericho Prison. Repeated demarches by our governments to the highest levels of the Palestinian Authority have not resulted in improved compliance with the Jericho monitoring arrangements.
If the Palestinian Authority would like the U.S. and UK to continue their involvement with the monitoring mission, conditions at the Jericho Prison must be brought into full compliance with the Jericho monitoring arrangements.
Regrettably, if the Palestinian Authority does not come into full compliance with the Jericho monitoring arrangements and make substantive improvements to the security of the U.S. and UK personnel working at the prison, or come to a new agreement with the Government of Israel, we will have to terminate our involvement with the Jericho monitoring arrangements and withdraw our monitors with immediate effect.
Lucy, in simple English, the PA was warned in no uncertain terms that unless it complied with the agreement or reached a new agreement with Israel, the monitors would leave and the agreement would collapse.
The PA did nothing, the monitors left, the agreement collapsed, the Israelis saw the monitors leaving -- and rather than leaving murderers whom Hamas wanted to release in the hands of Hamas, Israel arranged for their "extradition" unilaterally.
For this, you point fingers at Israel. In your view, apparently, the Palestinian Authority is no better than a petulant child who cannot be relied upon to do what he said he would do, even when warned by a scolding parent, and who then gets to point fingers at others when the obvious result of his own wrongdoing comes to pass.
The PA, abu-issa, had over 10 years to "mature." Instead, it elected a goverment that has called for the release of these murderers -- who have never declared anything other than their intent to cause more murder and mayhem as soon as they get out. Of course this undermines the PA's authority -- because they demonstrated they cannot be trusted to act with authority. How can you complain about Israel "undermining their power" in the same breath that you declare them "powerless"? It is a tragedy of their own making.
If you want the Israelis (or any civilized government) to work with the Palestinian Police and government to bring criminals to justice, then the Palestinian Police and government are going to have to actually live up to their own promises. If they want to be treated as adults, they need to stop acting like children.
Anonymous,
You have equated the Israeli/Palestinian relationship to that of a parent and a child several times in your post and that is exactly the problem. 'Israel must keep punishing the "child" for doing wrong'.
The Israeli collective consciousness believes that they are better than Palestinians. In the same way Blacks were treated by Whites in the southern U.S. and the Dutch saw the South African Blacks...
The European Jewish colonization of Palestine itself was the start of it all in this case!
abu-issa, you have reversed the analogy. The Israelis treated the PA as adults. Hamas said they wanted to release the murderers; the Israelis took them at their word and responded accordingly.
It is not the Israelis who have acted as if the Palestinians are children, but the Palestinians themselves. Called upon to act in accordance with their own agreement, they ignored it, and then pointed fingers when things blew up.
You folks are ignoring the biggest issue here - the Muslim leadership is too afraid to stop their indoctrination of hate. Check out the cartoon at http://www.al-fateh.net - for those who do not read arabic it says:
"Suad, the bright Palestinian girl, remembered what the Zionist criminals did, when they killed her father and mother.
One day while Suad was walking, she heard a voice from the trees. She turned and saw three men planting land-mines on the road leading to the Zionist camp.
Suad kept on walking. After a while, she saw a car with some Zionists, and an idea popped into her mind. She walked to the officer who was in the car, and told him: ‘I'll lead you to Palestinian Fida'yon (literally: self sacrificing fighters) in return for food, because I am hungry.’
The officer was afraid of the Fida'yon's reputation, and didn't believe what Suad told him.
He then said to his soldiers: "Take her to the camp so we will clarify her story". In the camp, the soldiers brought food to Suad, so she would lead them to the Fida'yon. She told them: ‘Before I taste any food, I must lead you to the Fida'yon.’
The officer was very happy and told his soldiers: ‘Let's go fast.’
On the way, Suad got ready to carry out her plan. She decided to cause the car to ride over the land-mines, so that all of the soldiers would die.
Suad sat next to the driver, to direct him, and she led him to the land-mines. Then the [car] blew-up and all of the soldiers were killed. As for Suad, well she became a Shahida (Martyr for Allah) on the grass, while smiling, because she died as a Shahida for Palestine".
Now, this is a Hamas-run site.
Are you not ashamed?
Interesting discussions here.
To: Sr and anon at 8:07
You guys might think you are chatting a good argument but you’re not even close.
"Regarding Israeli arrogance in this -- if you remember your history, the murderers escaped to PA terroritory after killing Israeli tourism minister Rechavam Ze'evi in 2001. In 2002, an agreement was reached under which they would be imprisoned (hrm.. killing a cabinet member of a neighboring country ... prison? what an idea!) "
What a gem you uttered back there but how many Israeli criminals and killers have been brought to justice for their crimes? Or do you feel that killers of Palestinian officials (whether you think they are terrorists or not) shouldn’t face trial or imprisonment. And for many, yours truly included, felt that that fuck-head Ze’evi was a class case terrorist.
How about innocent civilians? Why are Israeli civilians victims of terror while Palestinian civilian victims are casualties of war? You guys fail to remember the biggest crime of all; Israelis are occupying Palestinian lands, so get the FUCK off their land and the problem will be solved. Only a liar or a complete fucking moron would not accept the fact of this situation. That the Israelis want to bake the cake and eat it all, life is not fair I guess but then again don’t blame the Palestinians for using what they have to retaliate, blame only the ones who took everything else from them.
innocent criminal, I see you can't stay on the subject. I don't see any connection between these murderers and any other case on the Palestinian or Israeli side.
Here in the civilized world, we do not kill people merely for having opinions we find repugnant. What you think of Ze'evi has absolutely no bearing on whether or not he should have been gunned down next to his hotel room.
You are excusing Palestinian Police incompetence and wrongdoing while pointing fingers at the Israelis. Once again I call upon the Palestinians to accept responsibility upon themselves when they fail to live up to their own agreements.
and why aren't you calling on the israeli government to live up to the commitments the whole world has askded it to do for decades. there is no question the palestinian authority is corrupt and makes mistakes. but the origin of their problem lies with the israeli ILLEGAL occupation period.
IC, the topic of this post was Jericho, beginning with "Israeli forces attacked a prison in Jericho to capture an 'already captured' Palestinian." I will read your concession that the PA "is corrupt and makes mistakes" as applying to this specific case -- you, at least, agree that the Israeli move into Jericho was precipitated by the PA's failures. Unless we wanted more murderers in the streets, the Israelis had to move, and they did the right thing for all civilized humanity when they did.
Now as far as the occupation. First of all it is not illegal. The Arab states controlled the West Bank and Gaza, then they attacked Israel. They lost, too bad.
But in 1993 Israel said they would give up the territory anyway. If you don't think the Israelis are sincere about that sort of thing, take a tour of the Egyptian Sinai desert, which was given back to Egypt -- which lost the Sinai while attempting to eradicate Israel -- for nothing more than peaceful relations.
Arafat got as far as he could peacefully, and then -- in violation of all the agreements -- orchestrated a violent uprising and unprecedented death and destruction. All of this is because the Palestinians, not the Israelis, abandoned peace talks and returned to war.
The new government of the PA officially thinks that all of Israel is "occupied territory," and in their eyes the "Israeli illegal occupation" is all of Israel.
If you share this view, you need to re-study your history, and of course there will never be peace until you change your mind.
Sorry to butt in on your little discussion ANON and IC, but I've just finished re-studying my history and the way I read it Palestinians (Muslims, Christians and Jews) were all living a pretty peaceful existance until the European Jewish colonizers showed up about 100 years ago. The UN - by dividing Palestine to create the Jewish exclusive state - took away a part of Palestine...therefore Israel currently 'occupy's' what was considered Palestine...by also 'occupying' what Israel calls the territories they now occupy ALL of Palestine! :0)
abu-issa, did you ever look into why there's no Palestinian state in the old British Mandate? Seems the Jews were more than willing to divide up the territory, but the Arabs attacked both with pogroms (1929) and open warfare (1948) to prevent the Jews from having any of the territory.
Instead they built a thriving democracy in the Middle East. You should try it sometime!
If by a 'thriving democracy' you mean an apartied system that denies the existence of it's native population and it's inherent right's to live freely on the land that they have lived on for thousands of years ...you can keep it...
...sadly, these men were already imates at the jail, the only people who needed protecting in this situation were those Palestinian inmates...
I've been asked by my non-Palestinian friends many times "how could suicide bombers do it?" And I've asked them how desperate they would have to be to go through with something as horrific as that?
How about if an army had invaded your town, bulldozed your house, killed your Mother, Father, Brothers and Sisters...tortured your cousin for speaking out...maybe if snipers were taking shots at your children innocently playing in their school yard? Maybe if this had been going on for years and years and the whole world was watching and doing nothing? Maybe then...maybe then you would be desperate enough to do the same.
Suicide bombing shouldn not be considered an indicator of "a culture of death" but it should be an indicator of the intensity of crushing Israeli oppression.
How about "if you were educated to hate Jews and glorify suicide bombings" since birth? Consider for a moment that all "oppression," as you call it, was off the table from 1993 until 2000, when your suicide bombers started up again. What was their excuse then?
abu-issa, you have your history very wrong. There is no nation with a continuous inhabitation and love for that land other than the Jews. When Mark Twain toured the country in the 1800s, when the land was under the Turkish Ottoman Empire, he found a barren desert. Today it is fertile thanks to the Israelis.
The company I work for employs five women who live in Israel, supporting their husbands who learn in a yeshiva. Between them they have at least 10 children. None of their husbands are in any army save that of G-d, learning his holy Torah which, as you well know, promised that land to the Jews for all eternity. They live there because it is the land of our Torah; "there is no Torah like that of the land of Israel."
Ever since G-d promised that land to Israel, and brought us out from Egyptian slavery into that land, we have lived their whenever violent armies have not removed us by force. We have always prayed to return there, and have unless violence or economic hardship or other good reason kept us away. I may be living in the US at this point, but pray three times every day to return to that land and no other.
Don't lecture me about the "native population," because that native population is Jewish, not the Arabs who are the same ethnicity as two-thirds of Jordan, but who adopted the moniker "Palestinian" in the mid-1900s.
Princess, if I were of your gender and appearance I would be particularly concerned about the Hamas government. Have a look at what their brothers in Iran
http://forfreedominpictures.blogspot.com/2006/03/more-pictures-on-womens-day-protest-in.html
http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2006/03/irans_brutal_as.html
The land of this earth...belongs to everyone...your Torah is wrong...and your God is wrong if "HE" promised to anyone....God doesn't give the earth's land to specific people......
and by the way....maybe if the US..started giving the Palestinians the tune of 40 billion dollars..they too could be a so called "thriving democracy".......
I thought it belong to those who lived there 150 years ago. Not those who lived there 2000 years ago, not 1000 years ago, and not 5 years ago.
Or did I miss something?
BTW, apropos to our (prior) discussion of shooting at taxis, Israel's favorite leftist media source has the following two articles:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/695601.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/696016.html
I'm sure A7 and al-Jazeera will have their take(s) soon enough...
"maybe if the US..started giving the Palestinians the tune of 40 billion dollars..they too could be a so called "thriving democracy"
absolutely - look at all of the muslim-based nations who have billions and trillions of dollars and whose people live free to express their views and be who they want to be without fear of coercion and fear of jail or discrimination or prosecution. Countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman, Iran. These are shining examples of how having all the money one can imagine will suddenly create a friendly environment where ethnic diversion is cherished and religious, political and social freedom are the legs upon which the societal fabric stands.
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
C'mon now - do you really think that even if the Arabs in Judea and Samaria got every single thing they wanted, all the land they desire, full and total return of all family etc. and a trillion dollars to use that anything would change even one bit? Puh-leeze, enough of the nonesense. The money would be stolen by the corrupt ones at the top, the average person would remain poor and miserable as a sign of how evil the Jews are, and the money would be used primarily to buy mass weapons in order to turn them on whatever Jews remained in the area.
Anyone think the reality would be different - I challenge you to provide evidence to support an opposing view.
God is not a real estate agent so please give up that argument.
Taking the Torah literally is as dangerous as the Islamic and Christian fundamentalists taking the Koran and the Bible literally.
Thank God you Jewish/Islamic/Christian fundamentalists are in the minority.
Understand that the underlying code of these three books is exactly the same! Let's build from that and create a Palestinian state that embraces all three religions...as it was before the Jewish fundamentalists arrived to fulfill their 'prophecy'.
Sr,
"I thought it belong to those who lived there 150 years ago. Not those who lived there 2000 years ago, not 1000 years ago, and not 5 years ago."
Why 150 years ago? Why not 30 years ago? Why not now? I think Palestinian Arabs should take what they've got. Arabs initiated 4 wars against Israel and each time they lost territory.
And guys, please stop talking about "god-given right". This argument is used by a tiny minority.
You can find the real reason here - have a look a the map:
http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict.asp
While you are looking at the map, please remember that Jews cannot leave in Arab countries. Note that the opposite is not true - 20% of Israeli population are Arabs.
shlemazl,
Please look up the word "sarcasm".
We know who was there 2000 years ago, 1000 years ago, 150 years ago, and 5 years ago...
Dai lechakima b'remiza, if you know what that means...
Let's build from that and create a Palestinian state that embraces all three religions...
Why do you think this is possible? Do you have any example of any Arab state that provides anything vaguely approaching equal rights (and not just rites)?
There is no question that non-Jews (not just Arabs -- there are Jewish Arabs and non-Arab Christians and Muslims) are not officially equal in the eyes of the Israeli government (although it should be noted that formally, this is limitted to citizenship eligability. All citizens officially are equal). It is also unquestioned that informal discrimination exists (although Israeli Arab citizens are (obviously) treated much "better" than non-citizens). Nevertheless, do you have any proof (or even reason to believe) that an Arab government would even pretend to grand such rights to Jews (that means Arab, European and American Jews)?
Would I, for example, be welcome (forget welcomed.. what about just welcome) in your ideal Palestinian State?
SR, first off as you have stated Jews have existed in the Holy Land for 2000 years (and beyond) but don't forget that after the time of Jesus Christians lived there and after the time of Mohammed Muslims lived there too. However, at the beginning of the European Jewish immigration to Palestine the Jewish population was only about 5% of the Palestinian population. To insinuate that it was ONLY Jews living in the Holy Land for the last 2000 years is dangerously misleading.
Don't forget it was Jews who converted to Christianity and then Jews and Christians who converted to Islam...
To answer your other question Palestine (under Ottoman rule) was 80% Muslim, 15% Christian and 5% Jewish all of whom were granted equality. The three great religions of the world lived in peace together in Palestine...until the European Jewish immigration began. This is not to say ALL European Jews are responsible but rather the radical Zionist Jews who through "political persuasion" were able to "attain" 55% of Palestine to create a Jewish only state...this despite being in the statistical minority.
My vision of Palestine is a country that will prove to the world that all three of the worlds great religions can exist and prosper together. To do this however we need to illiminate the radicalism that has brought us to this point. And by this I mean Islamic fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism and Jewish fundamentalism.
I am a realist and will admit it will be a bumpy road but it is a trip we must take for the sake of, not only peace in the Middle East but indeed peace worldwide.
abu-issa, the vision is unrealistic, an obvious fall-back tactic after nearly 60 years of warfare against the Jewish state have proven unsuccessful. You can complain from today until tomorrow that land was given to the Jews, but they proved their case to the British and then defended their homeland against incredible odds.
The destruction of Israel is not an option, and no justification to murder its residents.
You should read this article. It may guide you towards a more realistic solution.
"At some point, the Arabs must learn that there are horrible consequences to horrible acts, that archangels and djinns are not going to save them. They must learn that the only way forward, out of violence and ruin, is to rid themselves of the fanatics who prey upon their vitals."
Anon, the unrealistic vision is of an exclusive Jewish state thrust on top of what (at the time of it's creation) was a country which was only 5% Jewish. Even now the combined population of what was Palestine from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea is only about 50% Jewish and even that number is shrinking. What I'm saying is stop with this segregation of Palestine, this apartheid...
Palestine has always been the melting pot of the Middle East, melding religions, languages and cultures throughout history.
The dream of exclusivity for Jews in Palestine has turned our beautiful country into a nightmare...
Umm, no. The Jews turned a barren desert into a thriving and green country.
Hi Anon,
I think the biggest lie ever peddled to Jews (and non-Jews) around the world was that Palestine was a "land without a people for a people without a land".
Cut it out.
At the time of the first European Jewish colonizers arrival (late 1800's) there were about half-a-million people living in Palestine, 400,000 Muslims, 75,000 Christians and 25,000 Jews.
Admittedly, after nearly 500 years of Turkish occupation, Palestine was not in good shape...but look at modern Afghanistan and that is after less than 100 years of turmoil.
Oh, by the way, diverting water away from Palestinian villages so that you can make "the desert bloom" doesn't count as doing 'something good'...
The people who say there was no case of Palestinian extradition to Israel under Oslo are incorrect, there was one case, I believe it may be unique, of a child molester/rapist being extradited. In the situation, most crimes (like murder) could possibly be political in nature, so would be politically ticklish to extradite over. This odd case of course was not possibly political.
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