No Money, No Honey
The economy of Palestine is thriving under Hamas rule... NOT!
I wonder what the hell is going to happen here. People are not being paid their salaries (gov't workers), merchants are not seeing cash flow and renters are not paying the rent in our building claiming that they don't have the money. Ouch, that hurts my pocket! Us Palestinians have got to get cracking or we will see a insurgance of violence soon. Lack of money will drive some people to work as hired guns for the Islamic Jihad and related groups leading to violence and more hatered towards Israel, this will effect the peace loving among us as we will also feel the Israeli backlash of making our lives EVEN MORE difficult.
Hamas is entering a long dark tunnel with no way out. With the political party Fatah virtually torn and dying, it is time for us Palestinians to think about building a new national movement.
We must save ourselves, but we cannot do it alone either. It is the time to create a political and social entity that is capable of supporting the government of a state, the Palestinian State. Fatah could not do it because they were obviously corrupt. Hamas does not want to do it, because they do not want to give up their sole role as a "resistance" organization. Therefore a new political and social force must be created. And we must do it now!
Now is the time for us Palestinians to create a responsible, honest, moderate, secular movement. It doesn't have to have a particular political focus but it needs to serve as an organization for supporting life in the Palestinian territories and an instrument for distribution of funds from international donors. This entity will be built using a network of existing NGOs as a nucleus, a support system and guidance. Order and hope need to be restored. and this is the main objective initially. Because we will have funding, and Hamas will not, we will eventually make the Hamas government irrelevant, whether or not the Hamas stay in power.
We will obviously need help to do this and money is not enough. We will need the international community to support us and Arab governments will have to play a big role as moderators and enforcers. The Israeli government has a part to play too. Israel will have to unfreeze the funds it owes the Palestinians to help support our new entity. The ports and border crossings of the Palestinian authorities must be opened to free transport of goods. We have to nip this in the bud NOW, poverty breeds radicalism, and radicalism can be exported. And that means a threat for everyone in the world.
Now the question is, uhhh, how do I get started. Suggestions please. I am so willing to do this, as you all now I am unemployed and I don't think I want to be a gunwoman, I am a PEACE LOVER. So help me.
posted by Palestinian Princess @ Monday, May 08, 2006
50 Comments:
Though you and many others are interested in a peaceful, free existence, you are up against a tough challenge. Can you name even a single country that is managed by Muslim Arabs that has the qualities that you described - "responsible, honest, moderate, secular." Sorry, but because your Arab bretheren would rather use you as gambling chips against the Israelis you are destined to never be a happy, complete society. If you were, then Jew-hatred is minimized, which removes the fuel for the fire of most of the Arab leadership. Sucks to be stuck. Only choice I see is just to go to Jordan and enjoy a good life instead of the constant uphill battle and a lousy one.
You could talk to Sandmonkey on www.sandmonkey.org.
This guy managed to organized several successful compains via his blogging circle in Egypt.
Take care though, I am not sure how Hamas looks at these activities if they think you are competing against them.
and where is the occupation in all of this? it seems incomprehensible to me that one can talk about hamas this, no money that, things need to change, without even mentioning that israel is an occupying military and civil force which has ultimate control of so much. why do people support hamas? because of the occupation, because of land theft, because of assasinations, because of being imprisoned. civil society will thrive and change will happen in palestine but only when it is not stifled and strangled and killed by israel, israelis, settlers, zionists, soldiers and anyone else who thinks that subjecting a whole population to such a miserable existence is acceptable.
Lucy, much as some Israelis and Zionists would have you believe there are no Palestinians working for nonviolence and for peace, in fact there are many. You don't have to reinvent the wheel! Start with say, the
Palestinian Centre for Rapprochement between People (PCR, or the Palestinian NGO Network (PENGON)
Israelis can help by pressurising their government to stop killing Palestinians and bulldozing their land
The Centre does not run the ISM.
Don't believe everything SHABAK says.
abu shaar - ghassan andoni, pcr's director, is also a 'co-founder' of ism. no-one really runs the ism, half of the 'activists' don't even know anything about palestine, israel or why things are the way they are. or even why they are in palestine. tomer - pcr is not anti israeli, it is anti zionist.
Abu Shaar says: "pcr is not anti israeli, it is anti zionist".
Abu, what do you think is Zionism if not support for the existence of Israel?
Ahhhh... good comments everyone. First of all, I wanted to make it clear that I do not agree with many of America's policies and pro-war attitude. When I talk positively about America, it is the diversity and the good times I had there that I am usually referring too, all the things I could do there that I can't even IMAGINE about doing here, you know. Thanks for the recommendation of sandmonkey, but after I saw this written on the site "Support the Neo-con American Right-wing Zionist Christian Imperialist Conspiracy in the Middle-east!" I stopped reading as that is not me, AT ALL...
As for Hamas, they are great ONLY because they stand for resistance. I don't want some whimp running our country saying "Yes, Israel, come and take EVERYTHING else too, we will just move our booties elsewhere" but I also don't stand for "pushing anyone to the sea."
We have to face our situation NOW. We can not keep talking about everything that has happened and why it happened and how it happened... Things could have been done differently then. We are in a different situation now, and we need to look at it differently.
We need a different strategy.
I am 100% anti-zionist. I know that all Israeli's do not support the zionist idea, perhaps it was there grandparents that came to Israel, and perhaps its because of people like me, that they have changed there minds and lost the zionist attitude. They too want peace.
I want to Israeli's to not be afraid to speak up as well as Palestinians... We are the new generation and if we don't start educating our young and others differently then we are doomed for a VERY BAD END.
Too bad you did not read Sandmonkey. Now you can't be part of our conspiracy...
There is still a major confusion about the term "zionism". The vast majority of Zionists (99.999%) want peace.
In fact, you appear to be a zionist too as you say "I don't stand for "pushing anyone to the sea".
Right on Lucy, I Totally agree with your ideas!!! As an Palestinian/American I also love the american way but do not agree with their policies in the Middle East or the Bush doctrine for that matter.
The young generation does need to step up and take over. The old guards have screwed it up royally on both sides, I say bring in Hannan Ashrawi and put her in charge. Everytime she speaks in the US, she is so articulate and makes so much sense that she makes a great case for the palestinians. We need someone like her desperately!!
Re "pushing Jews into the sea":
"The phrase, thus, has a Jewish origin and not an Arab origin. Mr Ben Gurion is the originator of the phrase...."
http://www.counterpunch.org/martin03112005.html
Neither Arafat nor Abu Mazen was able to satisfy Israel's governments nor the American governments precisely because the Israelis have done very well defining (in the Western press) peace as guarantees by the Palestinians of the personal safety of every Israeli.
Violence is defined as attacks on Israelis. In between suicide bombings, we hear,are time of "relative calm" no matter how many Palestinian children are shot or how many hundreds of dunams of agricultural land is bulldozed.
From what I can tell from here the election of HAMAS was more about rejection of Fateh's corruption.
Palestinian Princess--you're amazing and we need to do all we can to help you out. I hope you don't mind if I post this to a couple of progressive Jewish blogs, including:
www.jewschool.com
www.deityblog.blogspot.com (my own)
...in the interest of opening a discussion as to how this can be accomplished.
Link to aforementioned posts:
http://deityblog.blogspot.com/2006/05/oh-where-oh-where-are-palestinian.html
http://jewschool.com/?p=10565
Re: "Re "pushing Jews into the sea":
"The phrase, thus, has a Jewish origin and not an Arab origin. Mr Ben Gurion is the originator of the phrase....""
It doesn't matter who said it first, it's part of the Hamas charter NOW.
umkahlil said...
Re "pushing Jews into the sea":
"The phrase, thus, has a Jewish origin and not an Arab origin. Mr Ben Gurion is the originator of the phrase...."
http://www.counterpunch.org/martin03112005.html
uhhh, OK, but he was merely paraphrasing Arab leaders, e.g. Azzam Pasha, the secretary-general of the Arab League, who expressed his desire to re-enact a Mongol-like massacre of the Jews.
It's not as if, as the title of the Counterpunch article you cite to disingenuously suggests, that Ben Gurion said this phrase in reference to what he wanted to do to the Palestinians.
He was merely making a point. But forget the quote: Do you deny that the Arab leaders wanted the Jews out?
Halla said...
"I say bring in Hannan Ashrawi and put her in charge."
you can't be serious.
TOTALLY!!!
why not just cut out the middle step and send her all your money directly?
Quite literally the Palestinians of Jaffa were pushed into the sea, fleeing by boats that, according to Dr. Salman Abu Sitta, were fired upon by Zionist forces.
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jaffa/Jaffa/Picture2174.html
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jaffa/Jaffa/Picture1253.html
Like I said: forget the "pushed into the sea" comment. It's a distraction. I don't deny that some Palestinian Arabs were pushed out. Do you deny that the Arab leaders wanted ALL of the Jews out?
Maybe you should read this:
http://www.tnr.com/user/nregi.mhtml?i=20060508&s=morris050806
...Arab leaders wanted ALL of the Jews out?...of Palestine?? Not sure what you mean (also, the link you provided is for subscribers only)...
In the beginning the Jewish immigrants did a good job of integrating with other Palestinians. Here is a picure of a Jewish immigrant family actually wearing traditional Arab headdress, the kuffiya.
To say there was no animosity toward immigrating European Jews would be silly, of course there was...as there was towards Irish immigrants here in the U.S. when they began arriving...but unlike the Jews making aaliyah, there wasn't a radical group working in the background to create an 'Irish only' country within the U.S.
The Irish integrated very well, by the 1960's there was even an Irish President!
I get sad when I think of how it could have been had the Zionist movment NOT taken hold in Palestine...
Abu-Issa
i wish i had a chance to finish my job
maybe i should have pushed more of them to those hot ovens....
Palestinian Princess, Please delete the comments from 'shiklegruber.' They add nothing constructive to an otherwise thoughtful and civil discussion on your blog.
Or you can keep them to show the quality of some of our anti-zionist opposition
Unfortunately, I think it is actually a Zionist trying to make reasonable Palestinian's like us look more like the one dimensional 'Palestinian' they use to create fear in Israel.
Abu-Issa
Everyone once in a while that is exactly what happens on Kabobfest.
The blog owners can tell from the IP addresses of the "anonymous" posters.
Princess,
Can you figure out what is the IP address of shilegruber based on the time when he left his message? We might be able to pinpoint him by contacting his IP provider.
Abu-Issa said...
"In the beginning the Jewish immigrants did a good job of integrating with other Palestinians. Here is a picure of a Jewish immigrant family actually wearing traditional Arab headdress, the kuffiya.
...unlike the Jews making aaliyah, there wasn't a radical group working in the background to create an 'Irish only' country within the U.S.
The Irish integrated very well, by the 1960's there was even an Irish President!"
This is a most inappropriate metaphor, and represents some pretty blatant revisionism with regards to the history of Zionist settlement.
The Irish immigrated to a sovereign country inhabited by a self-identified nation of people: Americans. The Zionists did not immigrate to a "country" and did not encounter a "nation" when they got there. They encountered towns and villages populated by Arabs. Some were Christian, some were Muslim, some were Druze. The lines demarcating "Palestine" from the the rest of the region having only recently been drawn, these Arabs had no reason to see themselves as a nation and LARGELY didn't (though there are not doubt a small minority that may have).
Had the Jews actually immigrated to a country inhabited by a self-identified nation of people (say, Norway) and decided to set up a separate nation-state within it, then your metaphor would be more apt (and I would agree that such an enterprise would have been wrong).
But that's simply not what happened.
Were there people inhabiting the land before the majority of Zionists arrived? Sure, as I just explained. But it was not at all as you describe it. Tempting as it is to project the Palestinian national identity that developed in the 50's and 60's back in time onto the Arabs that the early Zionists encountered, it's simply not accurate to do so.
To wit, those Jews in kuffiyehs from your picture almost certainly referred to themselves as "Palestinian." Their Arab neighbors would not have.
The previous post I believe is a perfect example of Zionist arrogance. It reflects the kind of colonialist eliticism we have been up against since the early 1900's and as prehistoric as the ideology may be, it is what we are fighting still today.
The entire region was in flux, occupied (if you will) by western powers be it France or England who had just defeated the Ottoman Empire with the help of the 'Arabic speakers'. This help came with a promise which was autonomy for the 'Arabic speakers' regions (please see "Lawrence of Arabia" for the full affect).
Call the region what you like Kalamazoo, Timbuktoo... let's agree that for the sake of this discussion we will call the region in question, oh...I dunno...let's say, 'Palestine'?? As the other 'Arabic speaking' nations received their (not quite as promised) autonomy like Iraq in 1932, Syria in 1936, Lebanon in 1943 it became increasingly clear that the people living in this region of 'Palestine' (as we are calling it for this example) were about to get *#$%^@-ed the worst of all the 'Arabic speakers'. The autonomy which they had been promised was going to be given away to a European group of exclusionary, colonialistic settlers.
No there was no nation of Palestine. The lines demarcating "Palestine" from the the rest of the region became implied as her neighbour countries "came to be".
Politics aside, there were people living in the region, real people, with children, Mothers, Fathers, Grandparents, living in houses, working farm lands who had a shared experience of what it was to live there in peace with neigbours of all religions. These are the same people who were torn from their beds in the middle of the night and told to pack all of their possessions and go, leave, get out!
The people of 'Palestine' were real people ARE real people and will always be people no matter how Zionism chooses to portray them to good Jews and the rest of the world.
How's THAT for revisionist history!!
Abu-Issa
Well I don't know about "Zionist arrogance," but you've basically backed up exactly what I said regarding the non-existence of a Palestinian nation at the outset of the Zionist movement (though we may disagree on the details of subsequent Zionist settlement).
Two stateless people, each with a desire for independence.
Makes your Irish immigrant analogy seem pretty silly, doesn't it?
Lucy, I appreciate that you are different from so many Palestinian bloggers in that you don't spew hatred for Jews and Israelis. But I wanted to ask you to clarify how you define "Zionism" and what you see as the alternative. To me, Zionism is just a Jew expressing his right to live in a Jewish nation, built in his historical homeland, and safe, finally, from oppression of other people. What is wrong with that desire?
Also, I know that many speak of the time when Jews and Muslims and Christian Arabs lived together in the land, but that isn't really true. Jews were always treated as second class citizens, at best, and at worst, they were victimized. Remember that the Grand Mufti joined forces with Hitler in WWII, even before there was any state of Israel. While some Jews/Muslims/Christian Arabs have enjoyed friendly relations over time and in various places, the truth is that it was never any kind of a guarantee for the Jew.
Also, I cannot think of any Islamic nation that I would want to live in, even if I were Muslim, much less as a Jew. Maybe Turkey. But there are a lot of human rights abuses, pretty serious ones (honor killings of women, for example) in most Islamic run nations.
All that to say that I think it makes perfect sense for Jews to want to live only under a Jewish government. Also, you know that there are many Arabs here in Israel who prefer to live under a Jewish government too!
Anyway, I hope that you will respond. I'd like to discuss this and again, appreciate your willingness to work for peace and to not demonize all Jews. May peace come soon, for all of us.
I honestly don't want to be drawn into a rhetoric filled argument, the kind that has been going on for far too long and has gotten us nowhere for the last 58+ years... but, I think your characterization of European Jews and the people living in the region known as Palestine as "two stateless people" is the issue.
When you come home at the end of the day and you see your shoes there by the front door, don't you feel that you are home? When you wash your hands with the soap next to your sink right where you left it in the morning, don't you feel that you are home? When you open your refrigerator and see it filled with the food you bought at the grocery store down the street or picked from your garden, don't you also feel that you are indeed home?
I think that you can agree that because the region your home is in doesn't have an organized government yet, doesn't make your home any less your home does it?
The people who called the 'region of Palestine' their home (for the sake of this example we'll call them, oh...I dunno...Palestinians??) felt that they were home already!
Honorable people who truly wished to immigrate, integrate and to live in peace would have worked with the people who's homes were already there to create a state together.
The blind ambition of the Zionist movement and it's unwillingness to create a state together with the people who already called the region of Palestine 'home', has left good Jews, Muslims and Christians of the region paying ever since!
How's that for Zionist arrogance...
Abu-Issa
Abu-Issa,
I agree that we should focus on what is happenning now rather than keep comparing our versions of history... As you are going into history, let me tell my version.
Can I ask whether you are aware of the murderous riots initiated by the grand Mufti of Jerusalem in 1920s? Or the war of 1948 whereas it were the Arabs that attacked Jews? Look at the other Arab coutnries. Jews or Christians can't even visit some regions!
Facts show that Jews had no problem leaving with Arabs (as indeed they do). The problem did not come from them, but from the Muslims, partly because of the conflicting promises that the British made.
It is true that Jews wanted a homeland. Now is that so unreasonable?
Hi Shlemazl,
(Your pen name always reminds me of that 70's TV show Laverne & Shirley...do you remember that show? ...but I digress)
Yes, I am aware of the murderous riots of the 1920's and the 1948 war...though I do remember recently reading a quote from Menachem Begin himself saying that the newly formed Arab nations were too poorly equiped, too poorly trained and lacked the co-ordination necessary to actually attack Israel and implied that it was the Israelis who "got the ball rolling"...but that is for military historians to discuss, not me...
Also it is true that Jews desired a homeland in Palestine which is not unreasonable (considering the persecution they endured in Europe) however it was un-realistic.
To create a Jewish only nation in Palestine which was mostly Muslim being the biggest obvious hurdle.
I continue to advocate for a Palestine that should have been created in the first place: an inclusive, religiously free, politically democratic nation...that yes, welcomed not only Jewish immigrants but Muslims and Christians from around the world.
I choose to see this as taking the long way around and realize that it will take work to get us back on track toward a FREE and United Palestine!
Abu-Issa
Abu-Issa,
I was too young in the 70s. I couldn't speak English and would have had to miss Laverne&Shirley even had they shown it in the USSR.
Just had a look on your website. Discovered we are neibours :-)
Back to business of history and future.
1. In 1948 Israelis must have been even more wicked than they are now. Imagine - they managed to trap all those Arab armies from near and far away in their newly formed state!
2. Jews endured persecution not just in Europe, but also in Muslim countries. The Dhimma system discrimenated against them for centuries and Jewish pogroms were not that unusual. Israel was created in the nick of time as most Arab states were about to kick the Jews out without possessions (albeit too late for European Jews)
3. There was never an objective to create a "Jewish only nation". Just an objective to create a homeland for Jews. Minorities, including a 1M Arab minority live in Israel much better than anywhere else in the Muslim world and enjoy way more rights. I think they even have more rights than Muslims do in Muslim countries. That is not to say that I am satisfied: the State must treat all its citizens 100% equally.
4. Your vision of Palestine sounds good to me (although I am not sure why you like this Roman reference to vanquished "Philistinians" so much). Sadly it's not practicable with today's Palestinians. Not with the ones that elect Hamas (or indeed Fatah).
All in all, I realize that there is a real problem here: two people and one land. I don't know what the solution is, but I do know that involves a viable state of Israel. I think Palestians should either accept a state in Gaza and West Bank or join Egypt/Jordan. Boundaries to be negotiated, but not under fire.
Abu-Issa said...
"blind ambition of the Zionist movement and it's unwillingness to create a state together ..."
You seem to suggest that the local Arab inhabitants wanted to live in some fantasy (bi-national?) "state together" in peace. As you seem so fond of doing, you again project your current understanding/opinion of the situation back 100 years in time. Support for such an arrangement was small at the beginning of Zionist settlement in Palestine, and what little support there was was mostly among the Jews (Buber, etc.).
The reality is that both people wanted their own state (though the Jews began to pursue this objective far earlier). Don't pretend that the local Arabs wanted to live in bi-national coexistence with the Jews. There were Jews that beleived, too, that this is what the Arab residents of Palestine wanted. And they were quickly disabused of any such belief early on in the history of Zionist settlement.
"I continue to advocate for a Palestine that should have been created in the first place: an inclusive, religiously free, politically democratic nation...that yes, welcomed not only Jewish immigrants but Muslims and Christians from around the world."
Again, you would have us believe that this is what the Arabs offered 100 years ago, and which the Jews violently rejected. Sorry, but you know as well as I that this was not the case. You're projecting again.
I would go further, and say that to argue for a bi-national state even TODAY is to deny the actual desires of the people. Not just the desire of the Jews - but the Palestinians as well. I can't tell you how many Palestinians in Europe and the US have come at me with this bi-national state nonsense. And then you go to Ramallah, Nablus, Hebron and the people tell you you're crazy. They want a state of their own (some would prefer it to be alongside Israel, some in place of Israel, but always 100% Arab). To deny that this is the true desire of the residents of the territories is to display the type of divorced, elitist thinking that Palestinian exiles are so famous for - from Tunis to Montreal. That's the real arrogance.
Why can't we get the Arab commenters to admit that there was widespread persecution and murder of Jewish residents of Palestine prior to the advent of Zionism? When we Jewish commenters point that out, suddenly the Arab commenters go silent.
Until you can face these questions with honest answers, there will be no hope of any kind of resolution between our peoples. And we Jews will continue to fight to the death for our lives and our homes, because unlike you, we don't have upteem nations that we could go live in safely.
Anonymous,
...I'll admit my arrogance if you admit yours...
Abu-Issa
Batyah,
Again, I don't like being drawn into this rhetoric but:
"...there was widespread persecution and murder of Jewish residents of Palestine prior to the advent of Zionism"??
Aside from the riots of the 1920's, (which were a reaction to not only the increasing European immigration to Palestine but to the Zionists plans to make a homeland in Palestine), what evidence do you have?
Abu-Issa
Abu-Issa said...
"Anonymous,
...I'll admit my arrogance if you admit yours...
Abu-Issa"
Fair enough. I'm arrogant...
...but I'm also right :)
Dear Lucy
You do have a delightful blog. Pity you're stuck in your situation... were I you, I would probably move on (but I am a Raccoon, we're hounded everywhere anyway). Anyway...
Let me tell you a little tale, cous'...
After I finished my service in the special forces - we have finally left Lebanon, and good riddance! - I was transferred to the Jericho Joint Patrol. Not sure whether you have heard of it, but it was a fairly common practice back in the days of the hudna; IDF and PA police patrolling PA-controlled turf together. In Jericho, it mostly included driving around in Jeeps a bit and then having coffee and houmus under an old tree for a few hours.
Well, Jericho of these days was a splendid place. The casino was bringing in the big bucks, the city had more restaurants and gift shops than population, agriculture was booming, the streets were clean... Really a good place to live in, save for the godsdamn heat. Oh, sure, we had our share of unpleasantness - petty crime, the Jericho psycho that got the kicks out of raping young boys (we got him in the end), the daily heart attacks among the tourists in the casino... but it was nothing major. The biggest thing we had there during that period was the time when the Islamic Jihad, IIRC, threw a Molotov cocktail into a passing car and burned alive an Israeli woman and her 2-year-old girl. But, as I said, it was the exception rather than the rule.
But there was this feeling in the air... a feeling of foreboding, you know? Eveybody knew it was a hudna and not a real peace. Khaled, the big chief of our Palestinian counterparts, smiled secretively when he remembered his good old days in the first Intifada (he was crazier than a loon, but that is normal for a paramilitary commander). The Force 17 fucks gave us all dirty, knowing looks... but most of all, there was the feeling in the air. Like a gathering storm you cannot see.
And boy, did it break. Old Yasser - the Rayiss - pushed the button that started the new intifada. And within the span of a single day, everything changed. The guys we had coffee with on a daily basis suddenly started shooting at us. Khaled stopped being nice and let his inner beast surface. The casino was occupied by gunmen that constantly fired on us. The old tree under which we drank coffee was blown up. Shops were looted by militias. Restaurants closed. Hothouses were shattered. The streets filled with gunfire and rubble.
Our base was burned down and riddled with bullets - where once we had only plaster walls, now stands reinforced concrete. The casino was shelled to get rid of the snipers. The local population descended back into violence and poverty.
And this, my friends, is the sad tale of what briefly was the most successful town in PA. It might have many morals, or it might have none at all. Me - I think it means "stop fighting, get working" does the trick. And, unfortunately, vice versa.
Not sure what you, dear Lucy, can do about it. But it had better be something that would not label you a "Zionist collaborator" - we all know what happens to those in PA, yes?
I mourn for Jericho. And I mourn for all the sane people caught up in this insanity. Sorry for rambling.
I saw this documentary the other day that talked about how the religious right in the US keep Isreal around so that the prophecies in the Book of Revelations can come true.
It made me laugh. Imagine if that documentary were right?! Imagine if all this bloodshed and misery was funded purely to fulfill the prophecy of a worn out piece of nonsense book with little more value than Grimm's Fairy Tales?
And then it would be doubly hilarious because the Jews in Isreal, who are taking so much funding from the fundamentalist Christian right wing in the US wouldn't have realised that their existence was purely to realise a prophecy in a book of the Bible in which they do not even believe!!
The insanity continues. The world looks on. I think dinner's ready.
Iain,
You call 6 million citizens of Israel "insanity"?
BTW, there was no support from the US until after the 6-day war. Somehow Israel survived it's first, most difficult years.
I have not seen any articles or surveys about the Palestinians as a group, but there have been numerous articles and surveys that show that women turn to prostitution as a way to obtain money to support their children, or if they have brothers and sisters, young girls help their family by doing the same.
Of course there are always those in power who take advantage of their position to barter sex for services. Is your water bill overdue, do you owe money at the store, what ever service is needed, someone will take advantage of women in need.
Its a sorry world, and women bear the burden one way or the other. But when they have to do it for the survival of their family, they should not bear the shame nor the punishment.
That belongs to the others.
Papa Ray
West Texas
USA
arabs, any arabs are not going to have a " good " gov't until they can get their radical imans under control. unless you do the best you could hope for i another iran. until you get your different sects of islam to leave each other alone, until you get your tribes to leave each other alone you won't have a stable 'good" gov't.
then you can lose your victimhood, learn how to read more than the koran so you can get into a more modern century and stop expecting the rest of the world to support you.
i personally think islam is the worst thing that could have happened to you, it has screwed up your minds beyond hope.
Hi.
interesting and important post!
I really couldn't read all the comments but I hope you read mine, simply to get an Israeli perspective.
If I understand you, you sort of want to destroy Israel and you don't mind if Hamas or Fatah kill me but maybe I'm wrong and you agree to live in an independent state next to Israel. At least you don't seem to be the type that dances in the street with happiness when 2 busses full of people like me and my mother or friends explode.
Either way, I'm sure the Hamas and the Fatah will not let a big political party exist if it announces it wants to construct a terrific, successful Palestinian state next to Israel and that it won't let Hamas and Fatah and Islamic Jihad fire rockets into Israel or send suicide bombers into it. These people are fanatics and they (as you know) are happy to kill anyone who disagrees with them, even peaceful people. They prefer if everybody is poor and unhappy and want war than to have everybody successful and happy and not want war. I say this with genuine sadness for you, because it must be difficult living under these people, always hearing: "israel/zionists are the devil. if you make peace with them you are a traitor and a coward".
However, if the new party doesn't talk too much about "wanting peace" and focusses on "wanting to build our state and to make it flourish, concentrating our efforts to making our lives better instead of to war" and if enough people are fed up of the war and huge numbers of people start to march and to support it, then nobody will dare open fire on the demonstrators (However, if you lead the party, they might kill you. You need a lot of courage and if I was you, I don't know if I would be so brave). Maybe it will happen spontaneously. A huge number of people, with no 'leader', just marching and saying "enough war! we want peace. No more "destroy Israel", only "build Palestine". Who knows.. I guess it won;t happen but if it does, it will be the beginning of happiness for both sides. Two different countries for two different people. Neither country trying to take over the other. Jews can come to Israel. Palestinian descendents of refugees can come to Palestine. Hamas would hate it and Arafat will turn in his grave but everybody except for the fanatics would be happy.
I also want to explain some issues and some words from our side: First, "Zionism" - An Italian who won't agree to have Italy destroyed is the equivalent of an Italian "zionist". A person from Ireland who doesn't believe Ireland should be destroyed, is the Irish equivalent of a "Zionist".
Therefore, hard as it may be to understant, pretty much every Israeli is a zionist (Zion literally means Jerusalem, by the way).
Arafat might have taught you differently but our roots here are thousands of years old. Israel was our country (in the form of a monarchy) for a thousand years before the Romans even invaded.
Israel has no plans of evaporating and we will definitely defend our independence, our country and our lives.
The Palestinians seem to want a succesful war against Israel plus prosperity. Unfortunately, wars are expensive. Arafat never built anything with all the money he got from other countries. It's incredible! More money was given to Palestinians by the rest of the world than to any other countries and Arafat did nothing good with it! He never cared about building Palestine, only cared about destroying Israel and building hatred.
He could have destroyed the refugee camps and built beautiful neighborhoods for those who lived in the refugee camps. I'm sure the Hamas are against it too. They will say: "better to keep our people living in dirty terrible conditions because if they live in beautiful neighborhoods in lovely houses then we can't cry about how Israel has to take them in".
Palestinians can have a war if they want it or they can have a state, peace and prosperity alongside Israel! They can't have both!
Maybe this fucking situation will never end! Maybe there will always be too many people in the Palestinian Authority who want an Islamic Jihad against Israel, who want Israel to be destroyed.
I understand there's some disagreement between Palestinians:
Some want to push all the jews to the sea or, if they only can, to blow them all up. Others agree to kill or throw away only half of the Jews and let the others stay in a big Palestinian state (with Israel gone). Others (so kind of them) "agree" for all the Jews to remain, but without a country, in a big Palestinian state. Finally, there must be a few (I guess around 10%) who would be perfectly happy to have a state that lives peacefully alongside Israel. Wonderful people who don't want to kill anyone.
I guess that if Israel was powerless the ones who want to kill all of us will kill us, while the ones who don't mind if we (or some of us) stay won't dare to fight the ones who kill us. Either way, we won't let it happen!
p.s: my comment about how maybe you prefer Israel to be destroyed and me to to explode to pieces rather than live alongside Israel, 2 states for 2 nations, was based only on "As for Hamas, they are great ONLY because they stand for resistance." "resistance" = "deliberately killing crowds of people". The rest of your post had a completely different melody and maybe I was out of place and really you do want to live alongside us and not take over our country or kill us. Anyway, I hope so.
In any case, "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintainance" is a wonderful book and somehow I wish you all the best (just so long as it's not against me lol)
A.
Lucy, Habibti, can you please spread the word about my initiative? Maybe you can get the Palestinians, and Gazans mainly, excited...
http://www.levantinecenter.org/pages/project_gaza_surf_relief.html
Shukran Ktir!
contact me at sztalkoper@gmail.com
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