The Question of Al-Quds / Jerusalem
I was just chatting with an Israeli blogger and we started talking about Jerusalem. As many of you know, Jerusalem is a big cause of strife for everyone. Palestinians and Israeli's consider this ancient city as their own capital.
Anyway, we started discussing about the control of the city. And I brought up that Jerusalem is a very holy city for city for all of the religions. And we started talking mainly about the churches, which are every where in E. Jerusalem, besides seeing mosques you see a lot of churches in East Jerusalem too (Arabic Side.) And I stated that I would like the Palestinian Authority to control East Jerusalem and make it its capital, of course, just as other Muslim Palestinians and Christian Palestinians believe...
Now, get ready for the shock response... He said to me "But we have many Christian Israeli's that are saying, WHAT? We want East Jerusalem because it's holy for the Christians."
My response was of course... WTF?
First of all... There are only two kinds of Israeli Christians. The first group are the Arab Christians, you know Palestinians, just like me, who never left there land when it was invaded. And then there are the immigrants. So what are we talking about here.
How ridiculous is this argument. The immigrants to the All-Jewish nation have a say for who controls E. Jerusalem. Give me a break! There is no such thing as a "real" Israeli Christian unless they are Palestinian Christians who never left the land and they wouldn't be saying that they want Israel to have control cause they are Palestinian anyway. My point is, I love how Israel uses its immigration policy to equal out things so that they can one day use it as a valid reason and some Americans (the largest supporter of Israel) will totally agree because they are in fact blind to the fact that they are pawns of Israeli anyway.
Oh, I just gotta say whatever and Jesus was a Palestinian so I don't think Jesus would approve of Israel running E. Jerusalem. No, I don't. Not by the people who crucified him.
This was totally a rant... He pissed me off... And you know who you are Mr. :P
(When I say Israeli, I am being general, not all Israeli's are cruel, as not all Palestinians are all koo-koo)
posted by Palestinian Princess @ Friday, April 28, 2006
26 Comments:
Not by the people who crucified him.
The Romans?
Oh, did I mention, Jesus was also Jewish?
Not by the people who crucified him.
Yeah, uh, no? Don't forget Jesus specifically asked God to forgive those who crucified him.
How about we agree that the crucifiction of Jesus was a collaborative effort:
The Romans wanted him dead because he was inciting the population to revolt by telling them not to pay their taxes...
The Jews wanted him dead because he was trying to revolutionize Judaism and move it away from it's eye-for-an-eye mentality...
Jesus didn't approve of what the Israelites were doing then...and he CERTAINLY wouldn't approve of what they are doing now!
Abu-Issa
The honest answer is that we don't know exactly who Jesus was. Sadly Christians in middle ages destroyed a lot of historical writings on the subject that they did not consider sufficiently favourable. For sure Jesus was not a Palestinian Arab.
Probably he was a Jew fighting Roman occupation. His crusifixtion in itself is the evidence for this theory. Furthermore when he died there was a purely Jewish "Christian" sect in Jerusalem, run by Christ's brother James.
First of all... There are only two kinds of Israeli Christians. The first group are the Arab Christians, you know Palestinians, just like me, who never left there land when it was invaded.
Where on earth did you hear that? There are such things as messianic Jews (ethnically Jewish, theologically Christian), you know.
I suppose now would be a good time to mention that Jews consider themselves both a religion and an ethnicity. You can intentionally convert to Judaism, but they also believe Judaism is inherited by blood, regardless of whether the person actively practices Judaism.
Oh, I just gotta say whatever and Jesus was a Palestinian
...yes, Jews and Arabs originated from the same bloodline, if you go back far enough. Not to mention that Israel and Palestine were two names for the same place for quite some time (save for during the Israel/Judah split). So depending on how you want to define it, you could say most Jews are Palestinians. Nazareth was a part of Judaea (a part of Israel), back when Jesus lived.
The Romans wanted him dead because he was inciting the population to revolt by telling them not to pay their taxes...
The Jews wanted him dead because he was trying to revolutionize Judaism and move it away from it's eye-for-an-eye mentality...
Unfortunately we've hit a pretty much insurmountable wall in just 3 comments. The Christ portrayed in Christianity is rather significantly different than the one portrayed in Islam.
According to the Bible, the Jews hated Jesus because he was a blasphemer (from their point of view that he wasn't the son of God, as he claimed). I guess according to Islam what you said would likely be correct.
I know the Bible says that Jesus did NOT tell anyone not to pay their taxes; the Romans didn't really care about him other than the fact that his existence was causing a civil disturbance between Jews and Christians. I don't know what the Muslim view on that matter is.
Speaking of which, I'm looking forward to the debate at a seminary near here in a couple weeks between a Bible scholar from that school and a Muslim scholar from a different university on whether the Bible or Quran is more historically accurate. Should be quite interesting.
Jesus said the modern day equivalent of "Pay your dues" Pay what taxes are required of you. Very clear in the New Testament if you have ever read it.
Yes - according to Judaism Jesus, as a Jew, was a blasphemer. He made himself equal to God, of the same essence with the power only God has, so in effect God. That's why he was killed.
Re who are the "real" christians of the middle east. I am not really interested, as proving who was first , the first christians, is very complicated and not at all easy to prove and it really depends on how far you allow yourselves to go back, for instance, the new testament church in Jerusalem in the 1st century was composed of only Jews and if you read the New Testament there was a big fight over whether to let non jewish peoples into the club, and there were non jewish locals in the area. too (we will then have to go further to find out about moments of peoples in the middle east-quite a study). There have been waves of immigration since, the Romans themselves kicked out the Jews and inported their own crowd (a roman soldier town) for their new captital-Jerusalem, cant remember what they named it.
So who are the heirs of "Christ" today?? And are we talking about the physical decendants of those early 1st century believers only? Or is it the "spiritual"? This can get complicated. Does it help any?? Who really cares? You only have today to fix.
The who was first/most orginal debate is fruitless and does not solve anything, and frankly a waste of time. Today is today and you all have to live together.
the armenian christians????? They came from armenia and have been here a hundrend and more years? Dont they count? And they are not Arab palestinians? And the Greeks, etc etc
Islam, like Judaism, does not believe that Jesus was the Son of God but agrees with the Christians and recognizes that he was "divine".
Abu-Issa
I am related to the current Bishop of the Middle East for the protestant church, and I am quite heavely active in the Christian community here in Palestine. I know many people of all of the churches in Jerusalem, and many of the people from the Greek orthodox, or Armenian churches that are not Palestinian much more relate to the Palestinians than the Israeli as Jews don't even believe Jesus is a prophet. But Christians (obviously) and Muslims do.
I don't think many of the people who are not from the area understand the significance of Jerusalem. As Jerusalem is on the only disputed area now, as Israel has 80% of our land, and the best land at it.
I have read in other parts of this blog where some people responded as saying that the Israeli's cultivated the land and so on but they did it at the expense of the indigonus people, and they taking the best land in palestine and "pushed us to the mountains" and then they say "look what we have done, we have made the desert cultivable" but in reality, Palestinians always agricultural area, now that we must import the soil from Israel to our lands because we are in the mountains.
I think that the Israeli peoples use all of the excuses they can to get people on their sides by using information that can be altered to their benefit, as Lucy said with "immigration" policies to Justify that Isreal should get control of the churches because of Israeli christians.
For everyones information, there isn't ONE Israeli christian involved in the Christian community here in Jerusalem, they are either representatives of their diocese from other countries or they are Palestinian Christians, as myself.
What's the fuss? Those churches are in the arabic part of the city? Then surely -if it ever comes this far- they would be counted in at the palestinian control-area? A patched-up neighborhood wouldn't seem to me to be the wish of whoever...
Tse.
The biggest problem uhhh, is that Palestinians can't even go to the churches there without a permission from the controllers of the Universe... aka, Israeli's.
Alot of people in Judaism are begining to recognise that Jesus was a unique individual, a holy man, like a prophet, and very much a part of the history and traditions of ancient Israel.
Palestinian Princess. I know that is a problem and alot of Palestinian christians face it. I know of wonderful christian people in Beit Jala that have to go through alot of difficulities just to get into Jerusalem to celebrate Easter. I know this makes life enormously difficult. It would make anyone bitter, me too.
Jerusalem Boy,
You said "there isn't ONE Israeli christian involved in the Christian community here in Jerusalem"
You probably mean orthodox. Not every one is orthodox and they usually do not mix, you know Jerusalem, never the twain meet. I think the orthodox churches in Jerusalem, because of the events on the ground, have become very political and anti Israel, and yes, idenifies with the arab palestinians even though they are not all arab palestinians. I don't like the mix, religion and politics, it always creates strife and I think christians should be apolitical even though there are christian groups in Jerusalem that are not.
Princess,
What is your take on this:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49832
Somehow I don't think Jerusalem Christians will be better off under Hamas than they are under Israel.
As for the access problem... Palestinans as a society have to stop attacks and the trheat of attacks on Israeli civlians and there will be no issue. I know it's easier said than done.
For others who want more information on the people Tomer is talking about read this, you will be surprised how they feel about Israel, its nothing like Tomer is trying to convey (sorry, I know you tried, but I dont believe that the majority of Arab-Israeli's are happy being a minority in their own country.
Rana Raslan 1999’s Miss Israel :
http://www.bladi.net/forum/9374-rana-no-chance-for-arab-in.html
Selected Quotes:
"Only in Israel, I am not worth anything", she tells the daily. "Till today, I am treated like trash at the airport. I haven't visited Israel for three months because of what I had gone through during security checks. I was asked questions in a vulgar manner, held for hours. They also searched me; I have no problem being treated like any other civilian, but there is a way to do so, with delicacy. I am a woman."
There are loads of quotes in both veins. She was also not treated well by other Arab contentors just because she was an Arab and Israeli.
You forgot to quote the others mentioned as you have implied that they all hold similiar thoughts.
There are, it seems, real palestinian Israeli christains, the point of your post. Regardless of how one feels. If one hates Israel one can easily renounce Israeli citizenship and hopefully in the near future take up a full palestinian citzenship instead. The middle east is definitely not ready for multi race/culture states.
No ones says any country is free from discimations, look at the world Princess. You'll find this even in England and among the Israelis themselves and need I say it, Arabs too. Maybe it is about how much money ones makes, education, or colour grade. Who knows. Considering what goes on in the middle east and how much hatred and mistrust there is, I am surprised you even talk to each other. K
To K:
You are right.. Im surprised we talk to eachother too... The problem is there are too, way too many close minded people in this world... God help us.
Inherited by blood?
But no, it's not a racial thing, no.
abu shaar
what do you mean? Whose post are you referring to?
oy.
princess, if even the catholic church has dropped the christ killer line, would you mind not using it either?
at least here in america, it's considered a combination of rude and ignorant.
Yes, Lucy, you must not use the Christ killer line to refer to Jewish people -- I agree with the above poster. It's like calling a black person "nigger." It's just not done by educated people. Furthermore, it isn't even true. The Romans crucified Jesus.
I am curious to know what you have to say about how Christian Arabs in Bethlehem have been driven out by Muslim Arabs. Also, what about the status of Christians in other Arab nations? Palestinians should be very careful about accusing Israelis of discrimination when Arab Muslims across the world are notorious for persecuting citizens of non-Muslim faiths. At the kotel, when we Jews pray, we hear the loudspeaker from Al Aqsa mosque several times a day. It is quite loud and very disturbing, yet Israel never interferes with that. Can you honestly say that if Jews were living under the Palestinian Authority, they would be allowed to broadcast our prayers over a loudspeaker, disturbing Muslim residents.
I want to believe in your good intentions, but some of the things you say make me wonder!!
Hello. I like NY, too. I live here. I want to say this. If the question about Jerusalem is to which religion it belongs, then what is the difference if you lived there or not. You talk in a big amalgam of unrelated ideas.
Second. I'll tell you very clearly that I don't believe that the arabs living inside Israel are happy living in The Jewish State.
I, for one, wouldn't be happy living in a place called The Budhist State. I don't believe that any arab is happy about living in a state that has a law of return that applies to Jews only. I have more respect than to believe that on Israeli independance day the arab rushes out into the street to celebrate his defeat. I don't believe that when any Israeli-Arab sings his national anthem, The Dream of Two Thousand Years, a tear trickles down his face as he thinks, "Ah, how my father waited for the Jews to come home!" No. It was our dream. It was his nightmare. But, alas, life isn't always the way we'd like it to be, and sometimes we need to resign ourselves to the facts. Israel is. It exists. It will exist. It's not going anyplace, anytime soon. Maybe you don't agree with them. Maybe you don't agree with the violent palestinians. Maybe you didn't vote in Hamas. Maybe you are truely innocent. But life is what it is. I understand when I get stopped at the checkpoints because I look like an arab. All (ALL) the violence perpetrated against humans today is by arabs. Life is hard? You live in a prison? Keep your kids off the street when other kids are throwing stones. Move out of palestine if Israel is bombing apartment buildings. Every arguement has a counter arguement. Logic is only one way. Your job is to stay alive. My job is to stay alive. Israel's job is to protect Israelies. Palestine's job is to protect palestinians. You don't understand what it means that to Israel you are of secondary importance? Maybe that's because you aren't of primary importance in palestine. Israel is not your enemy. Your enemy doesn't give you a country and arm your police. Your enemy is your staunch resistence to the fact that even though you don't like Israel, she exists. The moment your people come to tearms with that fact, and the fact that Israel will defend her citizens, that will be the moment when Palestinians realize freedom. Be smart, not stupid. It's better to live that to die. It's better to win than to lose. And it's better to have an Israel that is hated by the entire world, than an Aushewitz that is loved by it.
Oh, and the thing about jesus being palestinian, That was pretty funny!
Mr. Rigormortis,
Your argument is beautiful.
Do you believe that "antisemitism" exists in the world today? Would Jews be happier without it?
Following your argument, then, all Jews should consider being more happy by hiding their identity, or by converting to Christianity or some other religion. Christianity is a much more popular religion with less persecution. Life would be a lot more convenient for Jews if they converted, less anti-Semetism.
Ahh relief, Palestinians will leave Israel and all Jews will convert. I love you, Rigo.
First, I recommend reading the New Testament, see if that makes you happy. Because, after all, you being happy is all I ought to care about. It's kind of me to think about your wellbeing isn't it.
Salaam,
-david
Again on the topic of the "Palestinian" Jesus:
From all we know from the New Testament, he was born, raised, and educated as a Jew, he lived as a Jew, and died as one. He taught at synagogues, referred in his teachings to the Torah and to Jewish prophets, and prayed to a single God, like other Jews and no-one but the Jews did at that time. His original name (Yehoshua), as well as his parents' names (Myriam and Joseph) are typical Jewish names. There is not even a faintest trace of evidence suggesting that he might have spoken Arabic. He wouldn't and couldn't have described himself as a "Palestinian", for the name was invented by the Romans about 2 centuries after his death.
If you ever visit a church and see a crucifix with a Jesus figure on it, you'll probably also see a label "INRI" above his head. It's a Latin abbreviation, standing for "Jesus from Nazareth, the King of the Jews". According to the New Testament, it was the title the Romans put on the cross, and the title was originally in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin. No Arabic, sorry. Just for you to know, if you ever again ask yourself whether Jesus would like the Jews to rule over Jerusalem.
BTW., the whole story of him being born in Bethlehem ("House of Bread" in Hebrew) is most probably a legend inserted into the Gospels to make Jesus a plausible Messiah. The prophecies say that the Messiah will be a descendant of King David (as the New Testament claims for Jesus) and that he'll be born at King David's birthplace: Bethlehem.
Those who believe Jesus was a Palestinian because non-Jews today mostly refer to his homeland by the Roman colonial name "Palestine", must consequently also believe that Immanuel Kant (a German philosopher) was a Russian, Archimedes (the Greek mathematician and philosopher) an Italian, or Averroes (Ibn Rushd, an Arab philosopher and physician) a Spaniard.
Merry Christmas.
You know - its really a shame that a beautiful girl can say things that would be divisive and affronting and that people will read it and accept it as a fact because you look so good (you do look good ;)
That said:
A) The Jews did not kill Jesus
B) Jesus was not a Filistin - the Filistin's lived only in Gaza - he was a Jew born in Beit-lechem and raised in Nazareth
C) Jerusalem was NEVER the capital of Palestine as no such country ever existed as an independent political entity EVER
D) When Jordan controled East Jerusalem after 1948 the city was ethnically cleansed of Jews and Jewish holy sites were desecrated
Simply because the internet exists as a way to flatten the world so all peoples voices can be heard does not create an excuse to write lies - its unfortunate and a tremendous lost opportunity for you
Maybe you should write an article on womens rights in Gaza? It would be such a shame for the same thing to happen in the West Bank and the world would be deprived of seeing your beautiful face covered under a veil...
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